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NEWS FROM CNN
Interview With Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Rich Galen
Aired September 15, 2003 - 12:36 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The Hot Topics for today's debate include Iraq, the Middle East, and California politics. And our two guests are here to debate.
Katrina Vanden Heuvel, she's the editor of "The Nation." She's joining us from New York. And Rich Galen, he's a Republican strategist, he writes a cyber column called mullings.com. He's joining us from Los Angeles. Katrina and Rich, thanks very much for joining us.
Let's get right to this issue about Yasser Arafat that's been in the news. The vice prime minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, Katrina, suggesting one option is for Israel simply to kill him, even though other Israeli cabinet members today are backing away from that. What do you make of this latest development in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, EDITOR, "THE NATION": I can't think of anything more counterproductive from the Israeli perspective than to do this. It will make Arafat a martyr, it strengthens his domestic position. And what it also does is isolates the problems the Middle East faces to one man.
And it will not ease the problems whose roots go to the occupation, a 36-year occupation, which breeds this terrible violence we see. And that, I think, needs to be addressed and pushed by the United States and the international community in a fair evenhanded way toward resolution.
BLITZER: We have an e-mail on this subject, Rich, from Klaus, who wants to know -- and I'll let you follow up on this point -- "Secretary of State Colin Powell said that removing Arafat will set off a worldwide Muslim rage. The Palestinians and Muslims around the world are already enraged and committing horrendous acts of violence as a result. Something must be done to stop it."
What did you say to Klaus?
RICH GALEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, let me go back to what Katrina said. I feel a little bit like out here on the recall, yes on one, no on two. I agree that the assassination of Yasser Arafat would be devastating. We'd have -- that would set up at least a whole other generation of rage and anger between the two countries.
I disagree absolutely with Katrina's characterization of the fact that the Israelis are responsible for this violence. Even the EU last week, Katrina, finally got around to freezing Hamas' assets, finally coming around to the idea that they may in fact be responsible for the fact that people are blowing up other people. It's not going the other way.
BLITZER: Let's let Katrina respond.
GALEN: In terms of...
VANDEN HEUVEL: Rich, what I am saying is that you cannot isolate the horrifying actions we see in the Middle East to one man, Yasser Arafat, a leader who Palestinians have called a dictator, yet he is the only elected leader in the Arab world. But what needs to be addressed is the fact that this occupation, this 36-year-old occupation, the fact that the Israeli government has failed to withdraw settlements, in fact is building New ones, is building a fence which would make this an apartheid situation, is in the worst interest of Israel.
And if you are a true friend of Israel, you would push toward a real settlement that would avoid these horrifying acts of terror against Israelis. That, I think, is the crux of the matter. And to call for the assassination of Yasser Arafat is the most counterproductive thing the Israeli government can do at this stage.
BLITZER: Katrina, I'm going to let Rich weigh in, but let me let Katrina -- just press her on this point. A lot of Israelis have come to the conclusion the crux of the matter is that there are a group of Palestinians, Muslims, Arabs out there who don't want to accept an Israel in any shape or form, any Jewish state within the pre-'67 lines or beyond, and that's the crux of the matter. They simply don't want Israel to exist.
VANDEN HEUVEL: But what has happened in the last weeks, Wolf, is that those -- in the months -- those extremist have been emboldened and strengthened because there have been no concessions on the Israeli side. We need to go back to a road map that sadly is in rubbles, even though the Bush administration said the invasion of Iraq would be a road to democracy in the Middle East.
BLITZER: All right.
VANDEN HEUVEL: We need to go back to that road map and find a way to jump start it and move, not in incremental stages, but toward a real resolution.
GALEN: Let me just finish with this -- and I'll do it quickly, Wolf. The road was being cleared until Arafat sided with the terrorists against the previous prime minister and allowed this thing to sway back out of control fairly dramatically. While we had somebody with whom we could do business, things were going in the right direction. And, in fact, the Israelis did give a lot of way.
They gave a lot of way in terms of releasing prisoners, in terms of beginning to start direct commerce. I mean, to say that the Israelis have been intractable, Katrina, I think is a mischaracterization of what (UNINTELLIGIBLE). BLITZER: All right. I want to move on and talk about Iraq right now. I think we have a caller who has a question about Iraq. Brian, are you there?
CALLER: Hi.
BLITZER: Go ahead, Brian.
CALLER: My question or comment/question is that the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, continues to speak about the 50,000 so- called trained Iraqi police or protection force. And my question about that is, how can the administration consider and count on these people to be an effective peacekeeping force when they've been trained only one week or slightly more? And by comparison, in America, police officers are trained 15 to 20 weeks before being entrusted to get a probationary period, usually working with a senior officer.
BLITZER: That is a good question, Brian. I am not sure that either Katrina or Rich have the answer, but I'll let them both weigh in. Rich, what do you say to Brian?
GALEN: Well, you've got to start somewhere. I think the big part there was to make sure that the people, the regular citizens of Iraq, began to see Iraqis taking control of the security situation. And they are -- as I understand it, they are teamed with trained people. So what they, in effect, are getting is on-the-job training.
But I think it was the ability of the Iraqis citizens to see their own people beginning to take control. That was the overriding reason for putting them on the street (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BLITZER: Katrina, go ahead.
VANDEN HEUVEL: I think the most important thing, as Rich says, is that political power be returned to the Iraqi people. Now, that goes toward laying out an exit strategy and transferring political economic power first to the U.N., but then to the Iraqis, and moving from this logic of occupation, which is leading to more resistance, for attracting guerrilla warfare against American troops towards sovereignty for the Iraqi people. There is more legitimacy, and there is real possibility of stability in that.
GALEN: Well, I think everybody agrees with that, Katrina, including the secretary of state, who was in Geneva yesterday. And, in fact, even got your favorite foreign minister, de Villepin, to back off from something he had said the day before. The day before, the French foreign minister said that the United States needed to be out in a month, and then he obviously got slapped down, because yesterday he was quoted as saying that the meetings with Secretary Powell were -- assured a gradual and aggressive approach that he approved of.
BLITZER: All right. Let me just let -- Katrina, is Dominique de Villepin the foreign minister of France, your favorite foreign minister?
VANDEN HEUVEL: I think the French fashion (ph) that's gone on in this country is a disgrace to our great nation. However, I would say that what needs to be done is to really transfer political and economic control away from a Pentagon-led occupation, which is not in America's best interest, toward Iraqi sovereignty and through the United Nations and international community.
We need truth-telling from our government, which has not giving us truth-telling, whether on the cost of war, on weapons of mass destruction, a whole series of other things. And I feel, Rich, this administration at the moment is staying the course. The test of a great nation is its capacity to change course of the errors for the sake of the world and our country's security.
GALEN: You know there is nothing I could disagree with you more on, I think, than that, and this is why, Katrina. Because of all the things that I think President Bush will go down in history as being known for is this: that when convinced that he needs to alter course to meet the true realities, he does it out of a sense of leadership, but he won't be intimidated into changing course. And I think what you say with the secretary of state doing, a fairly high level appearance of the secretary of state in Iraq, clearly indicates that this new course is being pursued.
BLITZER: We're going to switch gears and talk politics, national politics, California politics. But we're going to take a quick break before we do that.
I want to remind our viewers they can call us with their questions, they can e-mail us. Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Rich Galen, they'll be standing by. We will talk about the California recall, a big day in the California recall politics. Big names as the election day gets closer.
That was yesterday, Bill Clinton coming to Los Angeles to go to church with Governor Gray Davis. They're continuing their efforts today. And Arnold Schwarzenegger today, with Maria Shriver, on "Oprah."
What do you think about that? Call us: 1-888-CNN-0561. We're back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: In California, land of the stars, both Gray Davis and Arnold Schwarzenegger have turned to big names for help in the recall election. Democrat Davis has brought in the former president, Bill Clinton, and Republican Schwarzenegger is appearing today on the "Oprah Winfrey Show." He was asked, by the way, why he is skipping most of the candidate's debates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: On, September 24th, I will be debating. Remember when I came over here and I was competing in bodybuilding?
OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: Yes. SCHWARZENEGGER: I didn't go to the Mr. Venice Beach contest or the Mr. Chicago contest. I went to the Mr. Olympia contest, to the number one contest. And the debate on September 24th is the super bowl of all debates.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: California politics, the last of today's Hot Topics. Our guests, Katrina Vanden Heuvel of "The Nation," and Rich Galen, the Republican strategist of mullings.com.
Katrina, what do you make of this California contest right now? We're just a little bit more than three weeks to go. Bill Clinton out there campaigning for Gray Davis to defeat the recall. And Arnold Schwarzenegger, with his wife, Maria, appearing on "Oprah" today. Where is this going?
VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, it is a merging of Hollywood and politics, which we're seeing all around us. I wish every state race in this country got the free media attention this did.
I think it's a gross abuse of the democratic process, what's going on in California. There is a carnival aspect to it which draws attention. If Arnold Schwarzenegger wasn't in the race, would it get all of this attention? I doubt it.
And finally, if -- you know, Gray Davis is getting -- the recall is primarily because Gray Davis mismanaged this $38 billion deficit in California. Well, a lot of that comes about because of the reckless policies of President Bush. And if President Bush was held to the same account, he should be recalled, as he will be in the ultimate recall election of 2004.
BLITZER: All right. Rich, why are you laughing?
GALEN: Well, I was astounded that it took Katrina four sentences to blame it on Bush. I expected her to get there more quickly.
The fact is that the -- you know "The Washington Post" poll yesterday showed the president's overall approval at 58 percent. And there is no underlying anger of the president except for the political left, which is OK.
(CROSSTALK)
VANDEN HEUVEL: How about the military? How about the military in this country, Rich Galen, which has attacked this president in ways I haven't heard for decades?
GALEN: Well, let me just say that I happen to -- I have the disadvantage, actually, of being in California, and I came out specifically to take a look at this thing. And what I have seen, recognizing that parachuting in is always is dangerous, what I've seen is that there is a good deal of support remaining, a good deal of support remaining to recall Gray Davis. And I think he probably will be. And then on the Republican said, although the McClintock folks keep saying they'll stay in, they'll stay in, they'll stay in, that is what they have to say until, as I read this morning, either the end comes or he gets out. But I suspect that when the smoke clears, some after October 7th, that Arnold Schwarzenegger will be the governor and will be able to provide the kind of leadership they have been lacking in Gray Davis.
BLITZER: Let's get a caller. Stan is in California. He is the on air; he has a question. Stan, go ahead.
CALLER: Yes, I'm just curious (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as far as the recall on California is being -- going on, and it seems that the opinion of most people I've talked to are saying that they are kind of against the recall. How do they -- they feel that the recall will go forward, and they think that Davis will be replaced.
BLITZER: Well, let me ask Rich this question. The polls in California, whether it's the "LA TIMES" poll, the Field Poll, some of the other polls, what they do show is that support for the recall has steadily gone down over these past several weeks, although still at 50 percent. It could go either way. There's no guarantee, Rich, that Gray Davis will be dumped.
GALEN: Oh, absolutely. That is exactly right. And I suspect the irony of this thing will be that it may be so close there will be re-counts. And we may find ourselves in West Coast-Florida situation before we ever get to the second part of the ballot, which is who led the attack on issue two.
VANDEN HEUVEL: I was going to say the irony of talking about Florida is there is an extension here. I mean, these are Republicans who can't win fair and square at the ballot box. So the recall...
(CROSSTALK)
GALEN: No, no, wait a minute.
VANDEN HEUVEL: But this is a point you may agree with.
GALEN: Look what they did in New Jersey to replace Torricelli. I don't remember you coming on, wringing your hands about the fact that they twisted the law so that Bob Torricelli could be replaced on the ballot well after the official deadline. So, I mean, I understand what you're saying, but, you know, it depends on whether...
(CROSSTALK)
VANDEN HEUVEL: But what the irony here, not to extrapolate from the carnival in California to Iraq, is that the Republicans could well lose by winning, because they're going to come up against the constraints of an $8 billion deficit that you cannot address without raising taxes, which is needed in this country. Because if you cut the top one percent tax cut for the rich, you would get about $87 billion, that this president is asking for. BLITZER: Let's not forget -- hey, Rich -- hold on, Rich. Let's not forget, even if Gray Davis is recalled, there is no guarantee that Arnold Schwarzenegger will win. Cruz Bustamante is actually ahead of him. What Arnold Schwarzenegger really needs is for Tom McClintock, the other leading Republican, to drop out. But as you point out, he is showing no indication of that, at least for now.
Rich, unfortunately we have to leave it right now. But I promise both of you will be back. We still have three weeks plus to talk about California and a lot of time to talk about presidential politics.
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